Okay, so here's another debate with a Christian. @abolitionist is pitching for the god of the Christian bible and I'm in the atheist camp. Here are some highlights from the debate so far. Here's the link if you'd prefer to see it in its entirety. I'm gonna edit this to make me look good, obviously :P. Only kidding... just picking up points I found most interesting or would like to explore further.
Please feel free to join in at any point on any of the issues raised. Or, add some of your own ideas if you like. The more the merrier.
Let's play!
He starts with the highly inaccurate definition of atheism:
To be helpful, I pointed out that his definition is inaccurate, being about science rather than atheism.
In case you also don't already know, here is the definition of atheism from Oxford Dictionary online:
On the issue that god is a liar, I mentioned the following verse. Adam is seen to be walking about, very much alive after eating from the tree...
Genesis 2:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
As you can see, Adam is clearly alive after eating.
So slippery, these words. 'Surely die' means 'die for sure', rather than 'die spiritually'. 'Spiritually' is just one little word. Why did god leave it out? When I said god lied to Adam, you said it meant 'spiritual death'. Why doesn't god say what he means in the bible? Wouldn't it make more sense to state things clearly so that mere mortals can understand him without having to resort to verbal gymnastics or interpretations? If he's being slippery with words, maybe he wants some of us to fail? Hmm.
I asked for inconsistencies in another religion. He delivered a brilliant one. For obvious reasons, I won't be including a pic of Mohammed (I like life). Here it is:
The Qur'an is the authoritative book of Islam.
- The Qur'an says that the New Testament is reliable and is light and guidance from God.
- The Qur'an says that nobody can change God's words and that the Qur'an was given to confirm the New Testament.
- But the Qur'an says that Jesus did NOT die on the cross, whereas the single most important teaching of the New Testament is that Jesus DID die on the cross.
C) Therefore, the Qur'an, if true, is false, and if false, is false.
I agree. This shows glaring inconsistency. He asked me to show five in the bible but I'm going to start with one. This is gonna get too wordy if I throw five in for starters. Let's start at the beginning. We can build on this later, if you like; there's plenty of material, obviously.
Starting at the beginning of the bible, in Genesis 1, we see that god is busy creating stuff.
Day 1: god creates light; he separates light from darkness. He calls the light Day and the darkness Night (clearly we're talking about physical light/dark).
Day 4: god creates the sun (greater light), the actual source of light. He also creates a lesser light (moon) without realising it's not a light source at all, just something that happens to reflect light from the sun. Whatever, according to god, it was all good, even though he got three whole days of light without a light source.
This, to me, is a glaring inconsistency and ought to, for the discerning reader, raise questions about the credibility of the writing.
I asked how he came to the conclusion 'you can't know anything without God'. He said he'd asked hundreds of people and their answers were irrational. So, I asked him what questions he asked and what their answers were. His reply was:
For example: If we are all just molecules in motion, what duty does anyone have to adhere to true beliefs?
He forgot to tell me what these hundreds of answers were. Maybe it's just me but the question doesn't seem to relate to knowing anything without god. This question seems to be about duty and adherence to beliefs. Maybe he'll elaborate.
In answer to that question though, we don't have a duty to adhere to any beliefs whatsoever. Also, how can one ever know their beliefs are true? What is truth? Nobody knows 100%. Anyone that claims they know absolute truth is either lying or deluded or making claims, with ill-deserved confidence, after reading just one book or, worse, after hearing someone tell them about it.
As we speak, there is probably some poor mentally-ill person who's convinced his trousers, called Alan, tell him the secrets of the universe and advise him to piss in his co-worker's coffee. Try telling him that Alan can't talk and, if he could, gives out terrible advice. He won't believe you. Alan knows.
He asked me how I know my senses are reliable, how I know my brain accurately interprets senses and perceptions. I don't know for sure, is the short answer. Like our friend with the talkative trousers, our brains can malfunction. On the whole though we rely on testing and consensus. If I bake a cake and cut it into a hundred pieces, ate one myself and then asked for feedback from ninety-nine others, we could come to the conclusion, by analysing the results, that I'm not a very good cook. The more testing, the more reliable the results; we move closer to a type of truth: Anj can't cook.
Lies by god. We spoke about god being a liar. I told him that god had planted a lying spirit in some prophets' mouths. His response was that the spirit lied, not god. Surely, if god planted the spirit with the intention of misleading someone, that's as good as telling the lie yourself. If I load a gun, hand it to someone and tell them to shoot an enemy, and they do it, am I not complicit?
I asked him whether Jesus was lying or just wrong when he said some of his people would not taste death before his second coming. His response was that I misunderstood the passage. Here's the passage:
Matthew 16:28 (KJV)
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
To my knowledge, Jesus is the son of man and he hasn't yet enjoyed a comeback. These people, living thousands of years ago, are very likely to have tasted death by now. What am I misunderstanding?
I asked about the innocents that were slaughtered by god. His response was:
No such thing. All have sinned.
This is one of the things that bothers me about religion. How life is so cheap, so easily snuffed out because 'All have sinned'. No. Those babies? Where's their sin? How about the many abortions performed by god, all those miscarriages? God is by far the biggest abortionist on this planet. Did the foetus sin? Is it even sentient enough to sin before it's sloughed away?
I then spoke about how the bible tells you how to buy, sell, treat, beat and rape your slaves. He doesn't address most of these issues but says there's no rape and that I'm misinterpreting or reading poorly again. So, an example of slave rape in the bible with some free morality thrown in for fun...
Genesis 16 (KJV), Abram's wife Sarai was barren. Because she wanted kids, she asked the 86-year-old Abram to 'go in unto' Hagar, her maid (slave, presumably much younger). Hagar 'despised' Sarai. Sarai was upset by this so Abram (most blessed by god), after raping and impregnating Hagar, advised Sarai to do whatever she pleased with her. Sarai treats her badly, causing her to flee. God's angel finds the raped and pregnant Hagar, telling her to return to the abusive couple. The moral? You can rape, impregnate and abuse slaves and god's angel will advise the victim to return to that misery and tolerate whatever shit they throw at her. Nice.
He advises another commenter (@eonwarped) that god...
leads his people into proper priorities, values, and knowledge. You can trust Him, but other people you can't trust.
When eonwarped states he's not a believer, he responds with what looks to me like a veiled threat...
Just remember that you make this choice with full knowledge that you love yourself more than Jesus, and that you have no rational excuse for your actions. God help you. […] You're not OK. You like everyone are in sin and you need to be reconciled to God, as you are currently at enmity with Him.
No rational excuse? There are plenty of rational reasons for not believing; you just refuse to see them because you're blinded by belief. Typical bully tactics as employed by the god of the bible. Fall in line or else!
I'd advise people to actually read the bible for themselves and decide whether they want their morals aligned with this god. I know I wouldn't.
You've urged me to deal with you and not others at the moment. That's not how I work. If something grabs my attention, that's where it goes.
Aaand that's it for now.
Sorry, got a bit carried away :P
Love, thoughts and vibrations
@AnjKara x
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